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When and why did you join the army?
The
United States got into the army [war] on December 7, 1941, the time
of Pearl Harbor, as you know. I had wanted to volunteer but at
that time I still was still not an American citizen. I was still technically
German, so I was considered an "enemy alien," so they wouldn't
allow me to volunteer. But they drafted me. I reported for active
duty on November 24, 1942.
I
was sent to Texas for my basic training. Right after my basic training
was over, I went into federal court, raised my hand, and became an
American citizen. Actually, it was easier than the normal way of becoming
an American citizen, when you have to pass a test and have a couple
of witnesses or something. I was in uniform. I didn't have to do any
of that. I just went into federal court and became a citizen. This
was in Paris, Texas.
In the last interview, you talked about how you
joined the army and what you did in the army. But you never really covered
why you decided to join the army.
Very
simple. I received a notice from my draft board which says "You're
classified 1A. You're eligible for the draft." That's why I joined
the army. As a matter of fact, I wanted to enlist, but at that time
I was not a citizen yet. Coming from Germany, even though Germany
didn't recognize me as a citizen - they took our citizenship away -
but the United States still considered me, as a German citizen, which
made me an enemy alien at that time.
As
an enemy alien I was not permitted to volunteer for the army. But
then they drafted me and I was sent to Texas for basic training. On
April 10, 1943, I finished my basic training and I was promoted to
Corporal. Nine days later, April 19th, I went into the US courthouse
in Paris, Texas and raised my hand and took the oath of citizenship.
I became a citizen.
Did you feel any different knowing you'd become
an American citizen?
I
felt very good to be an American citizen.
When you went back to Germany as an army officer,
what did you feel?
I
felt very positive about that too. We were doing a job that had to
be done to rid the world of this tyranny.
Did people treat you differently because you were
a German Jew?
Do
you mean while I was in the army? Yes. No, it didn't
affect my relationship with my fellow soldiers, hardly at all.
Eventually
we were sent to Germany, or to Europe. Actually, what happened was
right after basic training I was given the opportunity to take college
courses in basic engineering at Oklahoma A & M College. I went
there and I was there for three terms, and then they broke up the program,
and sent us back to the combat troops. I was in the field artillery.
When
I got to Europe my ability to speak German was helpful. In fact after
the war was over, we were in western Austria - we became occupation
troops for a while - and my commander put me in charge of two little
towns. I was the boss of two little towns. I re-instituted the civil
authority there. I appointed the mayor and re-instituted the fire department
and things like that. My ability to speak German was helpful.
But
so far as relations with other members of the service was concerned,
there was no difference.
What sort of things did you do in Europe?
My
division was the 103rd infantry division, and I was in the field artillery.
We landed in Marseilles in 1944, after Marseilles had been liberated
already. We landed there, got all our gear ready, and then we drove
north to Alsace Lorraine, which is in northeastern France. That's
where we got into combat. We fought our way across the Vosgues Mountains
to the eastern part of Alsace, toward the Rhine. We were near Strasbourg
- which you probably know today, it's the seat of the European parliament.
Strasbourg.
At
one point I was ten miles from my birthplace. But my birthplace was
on the other side of the Rhine, so I was not able to get there. In
fact, the Germans were counterattacking at that time, and we had to
retreat just a few miles.
How did you feel being so close and not being able
to go back?
I
didn't have much time to think about that because we were next to a
little town by the name of Sessenheim on the west bank of the Rhine
River. The town where I come from is ten miles away on the east
side of the Rhine.
We
had to spend that particular night in an underground bunker because
the Germans were counterattacking, both from the north and the south
against us on our side of the Rhine - the west side of the Rhine. They
were counterattacking us and they were pelting us with artillery fire.
We found an old underground bunker that used to belong to the Maginot
Line and we went down underground into that bunker to be safe from
the artillery fire.
Then
orders came that we'll have to retreat - "Get out of there" -
and we got back into our jeeps and took off. We retreated about maybe
ten, fifteen miles or so until we were a little more safe and away
from the German artillery fire. I didn't have much time to think
about whether or not I would want to go back to my birthplace.
It
was a cold night, too. I sat in that jeep and nearly froze my toes
off.
But
eventually we started the big push which cleared the Germans out of
Alsace Lorraine entirely. Eventually we were going to cross the
Rhine. We went through southern Germany, through Württemberg and
Bavaria, and from there into the Bavarian Alps, in western Austria.
We captured
Innsbruck, a big city. From there we went up to the Brenner Pass,
which is the pass between Austria and Italy. That was our last
action. Then right at the end of the war.
You
might want to know how I felt about being an American soldier and fighting
against Germany. I sort of knew what I was fighting for. I could tell
you a little anecdote which might illustrate that. When we were in
Marseilles, I bought a bottle of wine, French wine. I took it with
me - didn't drink it. Every morning I rolled it up in my bedroll. Every
evening I took it out of my bedroll and set it right next to me while
I was sleeping. Nobody stole it. I took this bottle of wine with
me and for weeks I handled it that way. Then, in Alsace, when we got
close to the German border, I said to my battalion commander, "Colonel,
when we fire the first shot across the German border, I want to be
the one who fires that shot," with our howitzers, with our big
guns. He says, "OK". I was at that time in battalion headquarters
in the Fire Direction Center. We were doing the computations for the
fire commands for the big guns. One evening I saw a notice that
we were supposed to fire at such and such place, and it was across
the German border. I said "Colonel, remember you promised me
I could fire the first shot." He says, "OK, take a Jeep to
Battery A and fire the shot." I did. I fired that shot. Then
I came back to headquarters and that night we killed that bottle of
wine. I think that will illustrate to you how I felt about it.
What was your involvement with liberation.
Personally,
I was never in any of the camps. I know, I heard later, that we got
very close to some camps in Alsace-Lorraine.
But we weren't there, we didn't liberate them. Later, in Bavaria, units
from my division liberated six concentration camps in one town, in
the town of Landsberg. Landsberg, by the way, has a prison where Hitler
was imprisoned in 1923 for one year after he tried to - it was an abortive
try for power, at that time. They tried him and imprisoned him.
In that prison he wrote his famous, or infamous book, Mein
Kampf. That was in Landsberg. My division found six concentration
camps in and around Landsberg and they liberated them. I wasn't personally
in there.
But
I still remember seeing just thousands of former prisoners - concentration
camp prisoners. As we drove up the road into the Bavarian Alps, I saw
long columns of men in striped clothing come back down going the other
way. They had just been liberated. I still remember how they were walking.
They were staggering, they were holding onto each other. They looked
like skeletons.
Many
years later I met one of them, he became a professor at Sonoma State
University.
What were your emotions at that time when you saw
the concentration camp prisoners?
I
was shocked, obviously. Shocked to see their condition. They could
hardly walk. Three or four of them were holding onto each other
and steadying each other so that they could walk on down the hill.
It was a pitiful sight to see.
Did this make you angry, did it make you want to go
kill?
Of
course. Of course I'd be angry. But by that time Germany was pretty
well finished. This was in the last month of the war. They were pretty
well finished. I was glad that they were.
After
the war was over, and as I told you, we were just sitting with occupation
troops in Austria. We had a little time on our hands, so a group of
us took a truck and we drove to Berchtesgarten, to Hitler's mountain
hide-out. It was an estate, actually. It was an overwhelming feeling
for me to be in the place where Hitler lived. His estate had about
20 buildings in it. Every one of these buildings had a direct hit.
The Royal Air Force made one raid on his estate, and pinpoint bombing,
hit every one of those buildings, including his own building. I
stood in his living room, which had a big picture window, a beautiful
view. Of course the window was blown out.
From
there we drove up to his mountain hideout, his Eagle's Nest they called
it. On top of the mountain. It's a five-mile road that you have to
go up. Up there there's sort of a hunting lodge, at the very top of
the mountain. Usually people took an elevator for the last three
hundred feet, but power was out - no electricity - so we had to climb
up the mountains like mountain goats.
That's
when I was impressed with the democratic nature of our army because
a brigadier general was climbing right next to me. Both of
us had to climb up there like mountain goats. I was only a corporal,
you see. But generals too had to climb.
In
that lodge at the top of the mountain, the view is magnificent. You
see all these mountains of the Alps. The biggest room is a semi-circular
room with picture windows all around. It was overwhelming for me
to stand in that spot too, because I could just imagine, how some of
these European statesmen and politicians who had to meet with Hitler,
how they must have felt. Because they were invited to come up to that
Eagles Nest, and be subjected to Hitler screaming at them. I could
image the lonely feeling, that here they were at the top of the mountain,
nothing around them except Nazi soldiers, and here have this maniac
scream at them. That was his way of negotiating with leaders of other
countries
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