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As a survivor and also someone who really pays heed
to the idea of honoring other people in your family, are there certain
beliefs or ideas that you felt were important to teach your children
because of your experiences?
Look,
my kids are like all you guys, and you know my children. I think the
most important thing that I could teach them, if this is what your
question is, I didn't tell them much about the camps at all, very little,
because I didn't want them to be growing up thinking about it. I wanted
them to be like a normal child, you should have a normal childhood.
My wife is a local person and she was educated it San Francisco, so
that was very helpful. But when they were about 14 years old thereabout,
13, 14, 15, I took them separately one day, we went somewhere driving,
and I said, "I think the time has come when I should tell you
a little about my life." And both of them unilaterally, they weren't
together, on separate times, they said, "No Dad, we know all about
it, we studied it, we went behind your back and read up on it, we went
to the libraries and we wanted to know, because you never want to talk
about it." They didn't even ask me. So I felt vindicated that
I'd done proper, because they didn't want me to think about it. Now
it's different, they're mature, they're in their forties, and I can
live with it differently. I can tell you, the first thirty-some odd
years I could not talk about this. So, it worked out well.
Now,
let me say this, you got to have some luck. Nothing is self-made, and
I don't believe that I am that smart. I was lucky that the circumstances
lend itself in periods of times in my life to act the way I acted.
And I give a lot of credit to my family, my parents and my grandparents,
who must have done at least some job at teaching me, number one to
be honest, which I tell my children, number two to be loyal, And I
think if you have some of these attributes, to be loyal to your friends
and your family, to be honest and straight about it in life, that that
will help you, in my opinion, that helps a hell of lot to have a normal
and decent life. It isn't difficult, I think it's more difficult if
you have to lie, because you lie, you got to remember what you said,
if you tell the truth you don't have to remember it, I always feel.
You know what I'm saying?
I was just wondering, what your attitude toward Germany
or the Germans is today?
Thank
you for asking. First of all, I don't hate. I made up my mind early
enough that if you hate–and I've seen it more and more, especially
as I get older–it's within you so badly that it hurts you more
than the person you think you hate. So, I don't hate anybody, it works
better that way. I don't buy German goods. I don't want to go back
to Germany. I went back once to see that my grandfather's grave was
taken care of about 15 years ago and that was it, they were taking
care of it, the city was. So, I don't hate. I still speak German sometimes,
when the occasion arises with people who want to speak it.
It
doesn't do me any good, that's how I feel, that I hate. If I hate,
it's just within you, you carry it with you, and I think it's counterproductive.
I think hate by itself it counterproductive. You can vent your feelings
and get mad, and scream maybe, whatever, but hate by itself is totally
self-destructive, and that's why I don't want to hate. I don't have
to talk to them, I don't have to go there, I don't have to buy their
products, but to hate them? First of all, they're new generations. Hate
is not working, it just doesn't work. I may get mad and upset with
somebody, but then I forget it. So I don't want to hate. I'm not trying
to be "Mr. Nice Guy," it just doesn't work, I've seen that
happen. I mean, I like somebody, but hate, it isn't working for anybody.
What was it like coming to the United States?
It
was terrific. First of all I finally decided I had to get out of Europe.
I made a poor living, it was after the war, and I didn't know where
I was going. So, I remembered that my mother's brother moved to San
Francisco, and I knew him as a child, and he had moved to San Francisco.
And every Friday, or almost every Friday, my mother used to give me
a nickel and a envelope and said, "Go to the post office, put
a stamp on it and send it to Uncle Lamo." He lived in San Francisco,
he had moved here because his wife's family—my aunt—had relatives here
who had moved here before the turn of the century, I mean, they moved
here in the 1800's during the Gold Rush days. And I remembered the
address, it was 405 21st Avenue in San Francisco. Now how do I remember
it? Because every Friday I had to go to the post office and saw that address
on the envelop and I always remembered that, I still remember it now.
So I wrote letter to my Uncle, and he still lived in 405 21st Avenue
in 1949. Then he immediately, of course, sent me food and a letter,
of course, first. I said, " I want to come to the United States."
And
I was helped by an agency who took care of people who didn't have any
money to pay. I went on a boat. it took eight days. First it went to
England the ship from Holland and left Rotterdam on December, the 5th
of December. We went to South Hampton, and then stopped in Bermuda
for a couple hours. And then I saw the Statue of Liberty in New York.
And I stayed there for two weeks and I came to San Francisco. That's
when my life really started again. I couldn't ask for anything better,
because of loyalty of friends and help from people when I needed a
job, and especially the friendships developed over the years.
Then,
of course, when the Korean War started I felt really strong, that since
the American army had liberated me I felt very guilty that I hadn't
done anything. How could I pay back the American army? So I volunteered.
And I went to the Presidio, which was then the headquarters of the
Sixth Army, and I volunteered to go in the reserve unit and I signed
up for two years. With my luck the whole unit was drafted after six
months. So I ended up first to Fort Ord, near Monterey, for basic training.
And I went to Fort Lewis on my way to Korea. For some reason, with
my luck the unit that I was in, they kept me in Fort Lewis. I spent
the rest of my army career in Fort Lewis, Washington. I came out as
a Sergeant which I thought was big stuff. But I felt I had paid off
my duty to the American army who had given me life, and I wanted to
do that, and I'm glad I did. I still have some good friends from those
days in other parts of the country. But the army was no fun but it
worked out okay for me. That's why I feel we have to be very strong
now to support our soldiers because it's a tough life for them for
the moment.
How were you treated by people after the War after
you knew that you had survived the Holocaust?
After
the War? In Holland? Very nicely but let me tell you, there was no
institution we could go to, there was no one yet, you were on your
own. Some neighbors were nice and people were nice but everybody had
troubles. They had been on food rations in Holland. You couldn't buy
clothes in Holland after the war, at the end of the war and after the
war for the first year. There was nothing made. Everybody was in trouble.
As far as survivors were concerned, the few, we didn't talk to each
other. I knew what he was going to say and he knew what I was going
to say, or he or she. But the country, everyone had troubles. Businesses
were gone, there was no food to speak of. It was hard for the Dutch
and I'm sure it was the same thing in Belgium, in Holland, Denmark
and Norway – similar. But Holland was totally plundered. Holland
lost its entire – Holland is know for it's dairy cattle, you
know the black and white. We call them here "Holsteins." They
all came from Holland. Famous. The Germans had plundered all of Holland.
They emptied the bank accounts and the safe deposit boxes. They took
all their farming. They took all their cows. They plundered Holland.
The people – everyone – had problems. I had mine, they
had theirs.
It
wasn't like I came back and was embraced with open arms. They would
have liked to but they couldn't. It was hard to comprehend. And survivors
– I'll give you an example. One would have thought that there would
be
organizations which had been in business before the war who would take
care of survivors. But there was no one there. There was no one there.
We didn't get any money, or any help or any counseling. I had nothing,
zero, when I came back. The mayor of the town gave me a job in city
hall, I was pushing a pencil around, I had no schooling. There was
no such thing as a bank account. The neighbors fed me. That's all I
needed. I had no bicycle. Forget a car, I never had a car anywhere
in Europe. Everyone had problems, poverty, hunger, illnesses.
The
survivors, they all went different. The majority left Europe I would
say. They went to different places. The United States, some to Israel,
some South America. Some South Africa. We had no place to go. We had
no cemetery to go to see our parents graves. There was nothing there.
We didn't talk to each other either. There was no organized community.
That all came later, much later.
How long were you in the States before you got your
citizenship?
I
got citizenship in the Army, when you're in the Army, for some reason
the law was then that you can get it in five years usually, that's
the law, but in the army you can get it after three years. So, I became
a citizen in almost four years, in 1954, I became a citizen in Tacoma,
Washington.
When did you start working with organizations that
dealt with Holocaust remembrance?
I
started first with the Jewish Community Federation here, and that's
a fundraising thing, it helps the hospitals and the old people in Israel.
Then the Holocaust thing didn't come until many years later, many years
later, because I didn't get involved, there was nothing here at that
point on that issue until about the early '70's, maybe late 60's, something
like that when we started to build the Holocaust memorial. Which by
the way, their grandmother was the leader of, Mrs. Goldman, she was
the leader of building that memorial near the Legion of Honor. Mrs.
Goldman was very important.
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