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What language did you speak?

Czech, Czech, and I spoke some German. But Czech was the language I spoke then.

Now you mentioned escaping and letters, were those letters going in or going out?

Going out, going out, Yeah. They didn't want to have us to have any contact with the outside world. Um, there was um, the International Red Cross Um, came and again it is described in the book, Um, to check out the conditions of the ghetto, and hum, before they came the Elders, arranged that everything was cleaned out and hum, everything was spotless and there was even paper, salami and you know there where shops that showed food that was not real but it looked real and um, and the International Red Cross never really looked into. They bought this let's say they did not really examine the conditions of, they must have known that this was just for a show. You know, everything was dismantled the moment they left. Um, there was some questioning about the role of what they could have done, could they have, you know, put some pressure on make this known the Red Cross, there people being held here. But they didn't, and in what condition.

What was the preparation like for that presentation? I mean, what did you yourself have to do? I mean, did they break you up into groups?

No, basically they just um as I said they just cleaned up, cleaned up the place, paper flowers, and just ridiculous.

Did it look real?

Yeah, well, You find reality where you want to find it, I don't know how much they really what did they really see what did they want to see.

Now you talked about them performing plays, where were these plays performed?

Oh well it would be within the barracks you know in a large room within the barracks.

Were there certain days or times that you were allowed to go?

You see it was all our town, you, It was set up that way in that way we were free. It was our thing.

So at that time were you free to have religious ceremonies, were you free to practice?

If you wanted to, yes, yes you were.

How about your education, could you continue learning?

No, that we did not have, I didn't have, no that fell apart. Maybe other groups did. I did not , it just stopped. Um, I remember at some point somebody gave me or I found a encyclopedia, you know who somebody who was sent off to Auschwitz left behind, and I treasured that encyclopedia so much, I thought I am going to read this. I had this project, I am going to go from A to Z, you know. And of course I started to skip, obviously, but, It was a delight for us to have a book. To have a book and, because I, I, I, wanted to learn even in those conditions. You know I had a need to learn.

Could you read it openly?

Oh yes, Oh yes, There were no restrictions in Theresienstadt of that sort. You were there and eventually you were sent to Auschwitz. That was the route.

For everyone? Anytime anyone left, they went to Auschwitz?

Pretty much, there were some who stayed, who were lucky enough to stay in Theresienstadt and I don't know how the selection worked but I know that some people stayed One of my uncles, the one of the one Christian aunt that was part of our family because he was married to her so he was sort of, he was Jewish, but he had a Christian wife, he was taken very late in, during the war and was sent to Theresienstadt, and he stayed there. They never sent him. He survived. They never sent him to Auschwitz.

So did you think that it was just a matter of time before you were going to get sent?

Yeah. But as I said before, there was a part of a defense mechanism. You don't really think about it. You think something is going to prevent that. Something is going to happen that will change. It won't happen.

Section below transcribed by: Artem

How did you find out that you were being sent to Auschwitz.?

Oh you got a notice, and were very, you had like a week, you were gone

Tell us exactly what happened from when you got the note, could you take us right through that?

I really can't, it was, I think part of it maybe it's the shock. The combination of shock and denial, first of all you didn't know where you were going, although there were rumors, we didn't know, really know about Auschwitz, so, you're going to be sent somewhere else, it's going to be OK, that was, I know how my family dealt with it, it's going to be alright, we are used to it here, but it's going to be OK, we're gonna get used to it there, wherever there is

What were the rumors that you were hearing

Ah, That there was this bad place that people didn't come out of. I don't know, I know remember whether we actually knew the word, the name Auschwitz, and then, then you go

But when you receive the notice, and I'm sorry to keep taking you back to this, but when you received the notice, was it immediately, you left right then, what actually happened?

I don't know if it was a week, it was a few days, it probably was a week or so, not more than a week I'm sure, I don't remember

So what did you do in that time

Nothing, you started to pack your suitcase again, you know?

And you were allowed to take everything that you brought to...

Yeah, and you never saw the suitcase again, which you didn't know that, um. Then we got to Auschwitz, that was it, I mean, I never saw the suitcase again, um, you had what you had on your back.

Did you think about the suitcase?

Not really, not really, you start to, at that point I think, on some level, you start to detach yourself from the normal elements in your life like clothes, or shoes, or...

Where you given any clothes ones you were there?

Yes, yes we were given, little later on were give uniforms.

How much later on?

Before, I was shipped to Hamburg, Germany.

Did your family go through Auschwitz.?

Yes.

Your brother also?

Yeah, and I would like to skip this part if we could, it's too painful.

Which parts? about your brother?

Yeah, um, but the clothes. Yeah we were given summer and then later winter coat, and the coat was very bizarre, the coat had one sleeve that didn't belong to it so that in case you were thinking of escaping you had this bizarre coat, big gray with a blue sleeve plus a big cross, i believe it was yellow on the back

On the back of the coat?

Yeah, on the back of the coat, I think it's more visible if you're running away, i think.

So let me understand this, you received a summer outfit, what did consist of this summer outfit?

Cotton gray, gray cotton dress, no slacks in those days,

Did you have shoes?

And shoes, yeah, and shoes is the one think you could keep. I kept my leather shoes, very good leather shoes for a long time until in the labor camp in Hamburg, I got up from the bunk and my shoes were gone. And this is the reality of.. a girl took them, stole them, and she was a big girl, a tough one and I found myself, I got a pair of wooden shoes from the supply room and I found myself walking then behind her, or I could see her and she had my shoes on. And again, it's one of those, you accept that - OK - what are you gonna do about it? you lost your shoes, so little by little you keep losing, you know? and finally its only that which is within you that, cannot be taken away unless they take your life obviously. The sense of ethics or dignity, that you can still keep, the shoes you lost.

Would you use your memory of your home to help you get through this time?

At first yes but later on that receded because you needed all your energy to focus on they day to day. I don't know exactly when the memory just sort of starts to shut off. You can't deal, it's too much energy in a way. But you always, I never gave up the thought that it's going to be over, one day this is going to be over, so it's just a question of getting yourself through this time

What was the day to day like then?

Just labor, hard work and trying to make it through to the next food distribution. Very basic.

So how many meals did you receive then?

I think we got 3. Not much, but we were working.

Before we talk about your time in Auschwitz. what was the trip like from the first camp to Auschwitz? Who took you?

It was in cattle cars and I don't know how long it took, several days I think. Although looking at the map it doesn't seem like it's that far in Poland.

Describe what you can remember about, from getting on to the cattle car and arriving and the trip to Auschwitz, what can you remember that you can tell us?

I don't remember that much except the crowdedness of course and the darkness, it was very dark. Because it was a cattle car there was no light, only when the doors were opened, when they brought in food, did you get any day light. That was very hard, there's something about darkness, it makes it, you don't have a sense of day or night, of time passing, any of that.

Section below transcribed by: Linden W
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So how did you and your family get through that trip during that transfer period?

You just...you just did. I can't answer that, really. You just....

Can you describe more of what that...

...you just do.

...cattle car experience was like? The smell of it or maybe....

No, not really. I mean, you can imagine how terrible it was, you know. It was the uncertainty also, added to the conditions in the car.

What were the conditions like in the car?

What? Crowded, very crowded. There was a bucket where you went--to the bathroom. You did it in a bucket that stayed there until whenever next it could be tossed out. You become not (decent?) inside but sort of in a--I cannot describe to you the feeling. It's not a normal feeling. You begin to lose, I think, the sense of your humanity, is what I remember most. The sense of self.

Can you describe that?

That's such a difficult, you know, I mean it comes to the existential, it's a philosophical question, really.

Were you more aware of yourself and where you were going or were you more concerned about yourself and being able to survive the trip?

You want always to survive. You want to survive the trip. You become just part of this larger unit that's in the cattle car. I remember that sense. You don't have a perspective. And it's a terrible thing to lose.

Being a part of this unit in the cattle car and then getting a sense of self, do you feel yourself separating from them or growing closer to them?

I think you want to hold on to whatever is left of the self. No, you are not going closer. You resent it. You are hot, you're crowded, you're hungry. You smell bad. All this.... No, you want to hang on to whatever is left of the ......

How did you manage to ?????

I don't know. It's an inner process. I'm sure everybody has a different way of coping with that.

Did you reach out to your mother...

Yes. Oh, yes...

Did you reach out to your father?

Yes. No, you could, yeah. But finally there's no comfort any more. You know, it's ...

Did you find any comfort in....

Wait. I'm going to have to stop you and I'm sorry to do this again but we have only a certain amount of time left and we've got to keep building the factual record of her story. And so we are in a cattle car and we need to keep moving the story into Auschwitz. We have a lot more to cover and we have maybe a half an hour to go. So we've got to move away from the existential and philosophical and feely stuff and move to more historical.

[To Howard] I'm going to punch you out! I'm going to punch you in the face!

This is a question that is interesting which is, in being persecuted because you are Jewish, what role did religion and God play, you know, before you went and then during that particular time. And of course that is the essential reason that you were persecuted.

To a certain degree. We went to the synagogue during the High Holidays. And we did not have a strict household, you know, the Friday meal was, it was okay but it was not strictly observed. It's interesting, the question of God. I think it always is a private, in my view, a private contract. Again, it's like we talked about before, the being Jewish, the reason we were sent out is because we were Jewish. Period. Now you are going to pay the price. There was not much solace in turning to God, at least in my family, I don't think. It was sort of, I hate to say this, beyond. It was so unacceptable. I don't know if that answers your question.

The train arrives in Auschwitz. The doors open. Tell us what you saw.

Well, first of all it was at night. And again you had no perspective. There were strong lights above the barbed wire and it seemed endless. There were endless avenues of walking between these barbed wires. It was an enormous, enormous facility, I can say that. It's huge, huge. Mostly we were bewildered. We didn't know what was happening to us. We didn't know where we were. After a while you are stunned. You know, you are just like (?) and stunned. You don't have any thought processes at that point. You just do what you are told to do, from point A to point B. And I did not stay that long in Auschwitz. In a way, I was very fortunate. I stayed only, I don't have a sense of time, but I think a couple of months.

Was your family able to stay as a unit?

Eventually not, no. So from there, from Auschwitz, I then was sent to....

May I ask you, before you go on, about the living conditions in Auschwitz? In terms of the bed you slept on or shared...

Just, again, bunks.

...was it much worse than where you came from?

Oh, yes, it was much worse. Yes. Yes, it was...

Can you describe?

No. It just was uncomfortable, crowded. There were no mattresses, there was some, I don't remember what it was, it was very.... And the latrines were in the barracks, you know, it was terrible.

And did you know what was happening there? Did people know about it?

Well, yeah. Finally, yeah, we did.

How did you find out?

Well, you know, you had a visual image there.

Can you describe that?

No. No, I think we should move on to Hamburg (?). There are certain areas I need to skip. So after about two months--you understand--it is too hard.

Were you given a number?

Let them ask some questions and if you don't want to answer, that's fine. If it's uncomfortable, just say "This is a question I can't answer." Before we move out of Auschwitz, cause this is really--I mean, they've thought about this a lot, let's let them at least ask some of those questions.

Okay.

Were you given a number in Auschwitz?

Yes. Yes.

And is it tattooed onto your arm?

Yes. Yes, it was tattooed on the left arm. And I had it removed, a number of years ago. Which brings me, you like stories, I will now go out of that. In San Francisco, many years ago I finally decided, "Why am I still having this stupid number on my arm?" And so I went to Kaiser. I belong to Kaiser,and I said I want to have this removed. For some reason they sent me to the lung department, I don't know why. Ok, I will get a shot. And the nurse comes in, a pretty girl, she was going to give me the shot. I am lying there, she's cleaning the arm. She looks down on me while I'm while I'm on the table and she says, "Zdena?" I said "Yeah." She says, "I'm so and so, don't you remember me?" I said "No I don't." She said, "I was in your barracks in Hamburg." "I don't remember you." The syncronicity, this is what fascinates me, the syncronicity that I would get the nurse who was with me in Hamburg, it's just beyond belief.

And you don't recall her name?

I don't recall her name, no.

But you are saying she was a nurse in Hamburg?

No, no, she was a nurse at Kaiser, but she was with me in the barracks, no she was not a nurse there.

She recognized your name or the number?

I think she recognized the number first, and then she looked at my face and said, "Zdena?" I said "Yes," she remembered me.

Was there something about the numbers that you had in common?

Yes, it had an alpahbet. Mine was "A" something, something. And that would define a particular, what they called, transport, shipped from Theresienstadt to Auschwitz on that particular date, it identified the time, and she had the same alphabet, the same "A".